Introducing Graias VIP Club: Let's make it EXTREMELY real!

[Stev]

The post that you're referring to, was a response to a critical opinion aiming at the viability of our club. It wasn't a standalone message and that's why I suggest that in order to issue a fair criticism, one should shine a spotlight on the whole discussion that yielded to that post, and avoid to focus on just one word of one part of one of the discussions in this thread.

Thank you very much for your detailed answer. Please don't misunderstand me: it was not my intention to take a specific word - in this case: masochist - out of context and thus misrepresent your statements. I find the idea of the club you presented interesting and am now trying to understand how it should be implemented.

I do not know the laws in Hungary. You will surely know them sufficiently well. What I am sure of, however, is that consensuality is the decisive factor. Whether the girl is a masochist or not will make no difference before the law. What matters is that the whole working atmosphere remains consensual and constructive even after the shoot, so that there are no complaints. That is understandable and that is how it should be.

This is why we have to keep great relationship with every model as long as possible. Everything has to be and remain consensual. A masochist model is most likely to remain consensual than a model who's just seeking financial interest.

Now you write that the desired (working) relationship will be easier to achieve if the model is a masochist. And that was what I was referring to in a fair way I think. I and most here on the forum do not want to see masochists. We don't want the girls to feel pleasure from pain. From your reaction, it's not clear to me now if you want to work with masochists, as you wrote, or if you're just using the term for legal reasons. I don't think the latter is likely, because masochism is not a term that has any relevance in the legal environment (on the contrary to consensuality). So I understand you to want to cooperate with masochists because this kind of cooperation does likely not raise problems. This is understandable, but then this is not the kind of content that interests me. I'm not interested in masochists playing like they're not masochists either. I am interested in real settings, and these should of course be realized in accordance with the law.

Again, this is not meant as an offense. You know best which business model is promising for you. I have written my opinion on the subject of masochists, which I know is shared by many.

[Harry]

You write that you prefer crypto payment. What do you think about that: You produce a movie and a interview. The members can buy the interview with a creditcard. Then you make a second webside and with the pass the member get for the interview he/she can also download the movie for free. So Visa/Mastecard should not be a problem I think.
Maso women are no problem for me. Some people here think that for a maso everykind of torture and internsity is pleasure but that is bullshit especially not in a movieproduction....

[WhiteKnight]

This is a very interesting discussion. With so many contradicting arguments and expectations.

On the one hand we would like to see girls in merciless peril, in REAL merciless peril and on the other hand we expect that everything is done under the roof of consensuality. To my mind, this is simply not possible.

Of course, you may “buy” models and make them agree/consent to everything you want to do with them, without knowing, what this is. Without safeword. Without any limits. Just because of the money you/we would pay afterwards.

But honestly, I wouldn't watch a movie without being sure, that there is no permanent damage (physical or psychological) inflicted to the victim. That would destroy any attraction for me. This is also the reason why I do not watch films showing real torture/execution scenes. And I hope most of you feel the same way.

So, in order to enjoy a film, I have to be sure that everything is done within the models limits and, more importantly, everything is done within the limits of the producer who is fully responsible for the physical and psychological integrity of the model. And these limits could be much stricter than those of the model.

And indeed, I want to see evidence that these limits were met, which is usually done by interviewing the model afterwards. A perfect example can be found in Mood-Pictures Marial Law 3, where Lyen Parker endures an endless beating, but in an interview afterwards manages to convince the viewer that everything was within her limits, without giving the impression that it was an easy shoot.

If you try to produce beyond these limits, I am convinced you will fail. Ok is to produce seemingly beyond these limits and then afterwards prove, that it was “only” a performance of the model.

Good luck!

[Edukator]

Notwithstanding the legal and moral aspects discussed above I think the most difficult challenge will be to find the models (masochist or not) ready and willing to put up with this.

Just Imagine you're doing a preliminary model casting/information session and show them a few selected scenes of your most hardest/severe Graias/EP productions just to give them an idea ... then explain that what they'll have to endure will be much more painful and severe than that.

I wonder how many of them will still sign the contract right after seeing this and being fully informed...

[Graias]

The post that you're referring to, was a response to a critical opinion aiming at the viability of our club. It wasn't a standalone message and that's why I suggest that in order to issue a fair criticism, one should shine a spotlight on the whole discussion that yielded to that post, and avoid to focus on just one word of one part of one of the discussions in this thread.

Thank you very much for your detailed answer. Please don't misunderstand me: it was not my intention to take a specific word - in this case: masochist - out of context and thus misrepresent your statements. I find the idea of the club you presented interesting and am now trying to understand how it should be implemented.

I do not know the laws in Hungary. You will surely know them sufficiently well. What I am sure of, however, is that consensuality is the decisive factor. Whether the girl is a masochist or not will make no difference before the law. What matters is that the whole working atmosphere remains consensual and constructive even after the shoot, so that there are no complaints. That is understandable and that is how it should be.

This is why we have to keep great relationship with every model as long as possible. Everything has to be and remain consensual. A masochist model is most likely to remain consensual than a model who's just seeking financial interest.

Now you write that the desired (working) relationship will be easier to achieve if the model is a masochist. And that was what I was referring to in a fair way I think. I and most here on the forum do not want to see masochists. We don't want the girls to feel pleasure from pain. From your reaction, it's not clear to me now if you want to work with masochists, as you wrote, or if you're just using the term for legal reasons. I don't think the latter is likely, because masochism is not a term that has any relevance in the legal environment (on the contrary to consensuality). So I understand you to want to cooperate with masochists because this kind of cooperation does likely not raise problems. This is understandable, but then this is not the kind of content that interests me. I'm not interested in masochists playing like they're not masochists either. I am interested in real settings, and these should of course be realized in accordance with the law.

Again, this is not meant as an offense. You know best which business model is promising for you. I have written my opinion on the subject of masochists, which I know is shared by many.

I'm feeling that you're (to some extent) hesitated to freely criticize and express your opinions. And I appreciate that you're being respectful but I just want to ask you and all of the viewers of this forum to post what you really like to see in our videos without any hesitation.

First of all, once again I want to remind everyone that this topic is the back bone of the whole BDSM market, regardless of how extreme the scene is. What makes this conversation even more critical though, is that when it comes to produce "edgy" BDSM videos, you're literally walking on the edge of breaking the law and being just a adult film producer.

it's not clear to me now if you want to work with masochists, as you wrote, or if you're just using the term for legal reasons. ...

If you look at the chart that I've sent in response to your initial post, you'll find the reason of this vague standpoint. And I'm sorry but I can't be more specif because I'm literally in a conflict of interest right now. (the chart explains why) I hope that doesn't cause any disappointment but we've made the cost of being a VIP member free for a reason! So if you have a slight feeling that we might produce the type of videos you like, it's a good idea to follow the updates of VIP club.

... I don't think the latter is likely, because masochism is not a term that has any relevance in the legal environment (on the contrary to consensuality).

If a court's decision was only a function of relevant legal terms with clear definitions, There wouldn't be any need for lawyers and everything could've been replaced by computers.

[Graias]

saying that a masochistic model wanted to be in his movies. She even came to have specific ideas about how she should be tortured. He refuses because he doesn't want masochists. I am convinced that he thus addressed a very essential core of this fetish. By the very nature of his films, that is, by playing a game of pain, he manages to create a captivating setting that is real. The motivation of the actors is understandable and does not seem false.

Pedro's films feature girls who have had little or no previous experience with pain. Recently they are from the porn industry, but not from the BDSM sector. Seeing their reaction when they find out how intense the experience is, I mean, more intense than they expected, is part of the genius of the EP movies. If masochists are taken as actors, this essential aspect is eliminated.
It seems to me that Pedro doesn't want a player to win because you think he offers prizes of 10,000 and 20,000 dollars that no one has won so far; On the other hand, a masochistic woman would conquer them without a problem and it seems to me that this is what Pedro does not want, well that is my opinion.

Thanks for sharing your comment! Could you be a little more specific on how did you realize that the intensity of the scene is much more than what the models had expected? Was there any visual elements, or ... ?

[Graias]

You write that you prefer crypto payment. What do you think about that: You produce a movie and a interview. The members can buy the interview with a creditcard. Then you make a second webside and with the pass the member get for the interview he/she can also download the movie for free. So Visa/Mastecard should not be a problem I think.
Maso women are no problem for me. Some people here think that for a maso everykind of torture and internsity is pleasure but that is bullshit especially not in a movieproduction....

The customer won't buy just an interview: they buy the interview AND the permission to access the second website. Which is in direct contrary of their regulations. Let cut the long story short:
Visa/Mastecard are a lot more intelligent, more sophisticated and more powerful that what we think they are. There are very clear expectations on what a video producer should and should not do. The point is, when you are running a business for the long term, you have to think in long term as well, which means you have to obey and respect the law and regulation of any of your partners.

Visa/Mastecard don't allow any BDSM scenes that seem non-consensual? OK, we're not gonna sell those through their platforms either.

Talking about the anti-BDSM regulations, for those who feel like crypto currencies are risky or insecure. I think it's the time to make a decision for your self. Take a moment to read this article:

https://www.xbiz.com/news/264500/adult- ... arn-it-act

These custom-made laws are called regulations for a reason: they're supposed to make you just a regular person because you're easier to be manged this way. I think it's needless to mention but I'm sure the majority (if not all) of the members of this forum are the ABSOLUTE opposite of any sort of exploitation particularly when it comes to vulnerable members of our society like children.

Vanilla politicians know this very well and that's why they include their absurd "acts" with keywords such as "child pornography" and so on. This is to make their desire indisputable. For example when I say EARN IT act is not fair to adult businesses, everyone would do a quick Google search and find out that EARN IT is about Child Exploitation, which is a THICK red line and would immediately assume that I'm an advocate of such unspeakable stuff. While in fact, EARN IT would give a checklist to politicians to choose what type of porn they prefer and the next day you're only allowed to jerk off to the checked items that they've decide is good for you. This act is an overkill for a problem with a thousand other solutions.

[Yanni]

So Larry, since you asked:

This movie here was the holy grail: http://elitepain.com/movie.php?id=152&hd=on

Tied, not completely immovable, but cannot close her legs or stop the whip. Spread really wide.

Merciless beating, clamping, different instruments used and fantastic swelling/bruising in the end.

If you added scenes like this in here and there (ideally more than that for my tastes) I would be satisfied.

I just strongly dislike "hold position" films. While others may like the idea of an obedient woman, or the ability to struggle around and be overpowered, there should be strictness in the restraint or you're completely missing the B in BDSM.

I believe, as Stev says, you can do this legally by compensating them well for this type of punishment and making it based on them completing certain milestones. Last 5 minutes for x amount, take 50 lashes and a bonus of x for every 5 extra, etc.

Obviously it depends on budgeting, but I would rather have fewer releases of high quality videos with women you want to watch than a bunch of videos with hags getting beaten like on Brutal Master to save a few dollars.

[Harry]

The customer won't buy just an interview: they buy the interview AND the permission to access the second website. Which is in direct contrary of their regulations. Let cut the long story short:
Visa/Mastecard are a lot more intelligent, more sophisticated and more powerful that what we think they are. There are very clear expectations on what a video producer should and should not do. The point is, when you are running a business for the long term, you have to think in long term as well, which means you have to obey and respect the law and regulation of any of your partners.

Ok, I think I understand what the problem is.

Visa/Mastecard don't allow any BDSM scenes that seem non-consensual? OK, we're not gonna sell those through their platforms either.

Maybe that is the reason why Pedro produces only Gameshow movies at Elitepain and no more Mood Pictures Films?

As I understand that Earn it act could also be a problem for crypto payment in the US. But you are right. Maybe it is time to inform about crypto payment. Pedro also make a discount if you pay with crypto....

This movie here was the holy grail: http://elitepain.com/movie.php?id=152&hd=on

It is realy difficult to produce a move everybody like. I bought that movie many years ago and I watch it one time and never again.

I like for example the first canning at Shizo-the black part and the last whipping at Judical Punishment, bouth mood pictures. They produce so much great movies. The sub at Judical is Gaby Bouttal. Now she is at Graias and you call her Kate Bootal. Maybe she is a good sub for your new side

[Yanni]

This movie here was the holy grail: http://elitepain.com/movie.php?id=152&hd=on

It is realy difficult to produce a move everybody like. I bought that movie many years ago and I watch it one time and never again.

I like for example the first canning at Shizo-the black part and the last whipping at Judical Punishment, bouth mood pictures. They produce so much great movies. The sub at Judical is Gaby Bouttal. Now she is at Graias and you call her Kate Bootal. Maybe she is a good sub for your new side

Except that movie was in the top 3 selling movies of all time at EP up until Pedro started communicating on here with fellow members.

Do you need an "extreme" VIP club to produce extreme spanking and caning content? It wouldn't seem so since there's boatloads of hard as hell beatings for those into that fetish. All the power to you to promote that, but...

Dr. Lomp 1 is the only other movie produced like EP Case 21; nothing else. Two whole movies from gazillions of publishers. And this is what this club should be for... Movies that aren't touched by other producers as they require a work around for current paymasters. The money is surely there since those into that literally have nowhere else to go.