Bill Kerchein

http://www.boundanddelivered.com

BTW, I should also add that Dan's membership website is well worth investing in, especially if you like his work. I just finished up a month on Dan's site, and you would not believe the huge number of full-sized pictures and movie clips available there. It will take you weeks to grab them all. He just posted a whole new series of super-cutie Trinity A' Dell with her juicy tits all trussed up. I missed that, but click above for a teaser pic of Trinity suffering some clothespin torment in one my favorite Hawke titles, Lass and the Lash.

Ralphus:

Actually you get the first video when you spend the membership fee, so in essence, you get the latest Dan Hawke video for $24.95 -- basically meaning there is no real membership fee.

Bill Kerchein

Spam on the Gimpsite...man this place has gone to hell.=(

What does anyone else think? This forum belongs to you, so sound off.

Karl

Hey, ya'll:

Bill asked if it would be alright to post the newsletter here and I told him sure, the GIMP members would be interested.

Glad to see I was right!

I hope you enjoy the vid club angle Bill and I cooked up...

Dan

(Does Mentat computation)

I don't have a problem with the odd advertising notice, particularly if it announces (as this did) things that are of financial boon to the Gimpers.

Just my $.02.

Peace,

Iago

I'd be okay with an occasional posting from a regular contributor which said, "Hey, GIMPERS, there is a newsletter at the following URL which you might want to check out." But putting the "buy this!" content of the newsletter here? No, bad idea, clogs up the forum.

zee-ef-ex

DVD players suck. I don't want a player, I want a recorder. And one which will allow me to make a backup copy of any purchased or rented movie, like I can, and do, with a VCR. DVDs are a step backwards in functionality, if they don't offer easy recording ability.

And ps, I don't think $25 bucks for a movie in either format, DVD or videotapes, is fair. Ten dollars tops to buy.

My rants for the day.

zee-ef-ex

Ten dollar DVDs and VHS tapes? That would be great, but probably not realistic for small producers. I would rather have new videos and DVD's available for purchase at $25 or even $50, than not have any new ones available at all.

When Rick posts and tells us what he's up too, he also shows that he reads the forum and covers a few topics, or answers prior questions. (Of course it's been awhile hasn't it!) Same with Dan Hawke posts. They seem more personal to the group, and are the posts from producers I prefer. Again, I'm not against press release info from producers, but I think it should be within reason (whatever that is) and only from producers or whoever who also contribute to the board in other useful ways, not just advertising.

BTW, and this was very strange, I turned on my DVD player today and the start up screen came up and said "zee-ef-ex's suck!" It does that every now and then, I don't know why. I think it's fairly presumptuous of it, don't you? I'm sure it doesn't speak for all DVD players.

Seriously, Scribbler, I like your sense of humor, and I appreciate the point you are making about presumptuousness. But that just reinforces what I was saying, because it was my point in the first place. Like most people I hate advert-speak to begin with, with all of that "hurry down while prices last" false alarmism. And I particularly hate the selling of a sow's ear as though it is a silk purse. Advertising virtually always crosses over to the realm of lying, and I think that's why people hate it so much.

Anyway, when some spammer posts to this board with what is essentially an accusation that people who don't embrace digitially restricted technology are somehow falling behind, sure I take offense to that. His mileage varies, and yours may, too, but don't assume everyone embraces what you do. It was HIS presumptuousness, both in posting spam here, and in making it offensive (to me) anti-analog spam at that, that prompted my own comments.

PS: My VCR just brought me a martini from the kitchen. Can YOUR DVD player do that? :-)

zee-ef-ex

$10 BDSM videos, try LBO.

Okay folks, here comes some replies:

First, as Dan said, he thought it would be OK to post this advert here. I think for the most part the response has been favorable. However in future I think I will tailor any posts to the board, just giving a short notice when we have sales and so forth.

As to saying which of my videos I like best or worst, it would be mighty hard to keep producers if I didn't treat them all the same. That said I tend to like Dan's material more than the softer stuff. However the DKA videos we have are pretty good examples of quality bondage for those into the less interactive stuff. And all of the bondage products appeal so some segment of the marked.

I also like the ZFX stuff and the old HOM. However as to the ZFX stuff I'm not sure I can agree with all of you who rave about it. There are some really great things in the ZFX vids, but some of the fake stuff (the whippings for one) don't thrill me. Also I don't care to see women attacked by houseplants! ;) Still I do like the male dom theme and I love all the drool!

Now I would like to address two points mentioned by zee-ef-ex. First my tone was not meant to be offensive. I guess the newsletter was "advert" speak. However I do think anyone who doesn't take advantage of the higher quality, greater durability and extra features of DVD players are really missing the boat. But that's just my opinion.

There are DVD recorders available now. The last time I checked you could get one for about $700. That was a while ago so they probably cost less now. But this brings me to my second point.

Stealing bondage videos.

When I read someone wants DVD's for $10 a unit I have to wonder.

Very few bondage producers are rich. I haven't seen any Mercedes in their drives, nor even BMW's for that matter. This is a very small market.

At least a very small paying market.

I admit to duping some videos in my own personal collection in the past. I suppose hard times, lack of funds and desire for the product are a justification for all of the pirating that goes on.

However justification and rationalization are pretty close together.

Every time you duplicate a rented tape or have a buddy run off a copy of a product, you are hurting the actual producers. Everyone here gets behind Rick when he comments about someone illegally selling his stuff retail, but those who make their own private copies feel their crime is not the same.

I know that a lot of the material being produced is pretty lame. I know that spending money on material that you find is poor to outright bad is a real drag. However if you find someone whose stuff you do like, like ZFX or Dan Hawke or whoever, you should support the producers by buying their products. Preferably direct from them.

If you don't support them, they may dissapear some day. Believe it.

So it's up to you. You can continue to watch as producers leave the market and keep posting "whatever happened to" notices here or you can get behind those producers you actually like.

$10 a tape or DVD? I know what I make, and I know what I pay the producers. Let me tell you. At the sales volumes that exist, I would close up the site, and I'm pretty sure most of the producers would as well at those prices.

Hollywood movies cost about $20 a DVD (although you can grab them on sale sometimes for $15 in the initial week of release). How many of those DVD's give you the charge that your bondage collection brings to you? Yet people don't complain about that.

The latest computer animation title that was put out generated millions of copies sold. A good bondage title may generate a hundred units or so -- over the course of three or four months.

I don't know Rick, but I have visited Dan before. He shoots with $8,000 worth of cameras. He pays the model - pays all of her travel expenses and also pays an assistant. I know he has close to $30,000-$40,000 invested in props and another $20,000 in video editing equipment. I'm sure Rick has similar expenses.

Shooting this stuff isn't cheap or easy. These guys deserve the money they get, trust me.

In fact, most producers don't last five years.

Perhaps many of them don't deseve to. At least that's what the marketplace says.

However when you think how few video producers exist (insex doesn't sell videos, hogtied doesn't anymore, etc.), the $$$ they spend making the stuff, the potential legal entanglements (prison is not out of the question) and the fact that people complain about paying a fair price for the products and you wonder why anyone bothers to do it all.

The video club is an idea cooked up by Dan (with some little input from me) in the hopes that more of you will actually support his work -- instead of stealing it (though he would never say that).

If this goes over well we will extend the offer.

You want cheaper products, then buy from the producers directly.

If even 1/3rd of those who rip off the products were to buy them, I would bet the prices could easily drop 50% or more. But when each unit sold supplies 10-12 folks with the video, then the prices have to stay high.

I don't mean to attack any individual posters or GIMPers. I certainly don't mean to attack zee-ef-ex.

Ultimately pirating is a fact of a this business and the producers accept it. But sooner or later they all get tired of working hard and struggling just to pay the bills and keep a roof over their heads.

It's up to you (the fans who actually seem to give a shit) to make this sad reality change.

I guarantee you, if our sales volume goes up substantially, our prices will go down.

If not, then the only thing that will continue to go down are the number of producers who are putting bondage product out there.

And that, as they say, is my .02!

Bill Kerchein http://www.boundanddelivered.com

piracy: bad; buying one of the many vids that suck: bad; buying vids that are actually good: good.

dvd players: good; VCRs: good; dvd recorders: some are said to be good; dvd recorders with built in hard drives: even better; tivo: haven't decided.

press releases: OK I guess; overly advertising oriented posts: bad; producer and distributor non-ad posts: good; some promotional content in posts: can be fine, depends, let moderator decide.

VCRs that make martinis: cool; DVD players that can do construction and add a whole 3rd story floor to house: even better!

So what's your 8-track tape deck do besides play music? ;-)

Later.

Also DVD-R/RW's are less than a hundred sometimes...don't know much about them. Don't know if you would be able to record similarly with them though.

Later.

This is probably a discussion better left for slashdot, but bottom line, it's not theft, it's not stealing, making copies for one's personal use is at most copyright infringement and at best fair use. And it all comes out in the wash - at the end of the day, I don't have a single extra penny to spend, so if I'm paying the video store for the rentals and the VCR manufacturers and maintainers for the hardware and the blank casette companies for the blank tapes, it's all the same money, and I'm certainly renting more than I ever would if I was limited to buy-only, and probably buying more, too (thanks to having the opportunity to be exposed to more product samples). Rhetorical question - you will never win this debate, and we shouldn't bore the children - but why should the laws be changed so content makers make more money than the hardware manufacturers or the video rental stores? Why can't the content makers be satisfied with rental fee money, like Hollywood has historically been, until Hollywood's recent digital money grabs?

Yes, you certainly have an argument that specialty content should demand a higher price, fair enough, I agree with you, it should. But in general, there needs to be a business model which lets us sample and sort through all of the non-inspired content out there (most of it) so we can spend our limited purchase dollars wisely. In brief, if you as a content producer want to go digital, you have to take the good with the bad that comes with that. If I can't easily copy it, then I don't want it. Analog quality is just fine. And yes, if I can't rip and copy CDs, I'll happily go back to casette tapes and 8-track tapes and beating with bones on the wall of my cave. And there are many like me, and it takes a nation of millions to hold us back. (smile)

PS: Don't forget that you're assuming that because I have the capacity to make a copy of a videotape, that I am doing so. It is the rare rental movie which I ever copy, most of them are boring and not worth keeping.

PPS: What about those tits on Brandi Dukes, huh? I generally like 'em small, but you gotta admit, hers have character, that's for sure. Is there a name for large aereolas like that?

zee-ef-ex

Yes, the word is suckable.

Please email me - I can't find your email address.

I see your logic about prices for material, but can't help stepping into the wayback machine and my first experiences with bondage movies. I was 21 or so, and found my first seller of bondage stuff in the back of an AVN magazine borrowed from a guy I knew in a video store. I sent away for the catalog (yes, this was pre-internet for the masses) and ordered the discount-for-getting-three-at-a-time pack of three movies. It cost me about $120 all told if I remember right. It was all I could spend for the next 6 months.

I wonder what percentage of your audience is formed from people like that? Young guys without a lot of scratch?

It's all economies of scale, but unfortunately it's also a catch-22 for you guys. You can't afford to lower your prices without more demand, but you may never get more demand unless you lower your prices. I know I'd have bought a lot more movies back then if they'd been cheaper. It was a real tough call what movies to order when I knew I really couldn't afford any more for a long time and it would really suck if I chose a stinker.

That actually remains my biggest block to this day. New producers can't really get a break from me unless I either see a lot of good reviews here or the tools on the web site give me a good indicator of what I'm going to get.

Like I said, it's not a comfortable situation to be in. I wonder, though, if there was a way to try a $10 tape as a test and see what happened with it? If it only sold as well as any other movie you'd be out a few bucks. If it took off, you'd be in a position to gain (at least temporarily) a real edge in the market.

Another idea would be to do what some booksellers do: Extended etasers, where you can buy the 1st half of a book for $1, but you need to buy the whole book to get the back half. Sell a $5 or $10 version of the tape (cheaper is better-you'll probably make it back on the sale of the main title), but it only includes the first half of the vid. Then charge for the full version of the video when they want to see the second half. If they like it and they want to see what they think will be the really good stuff in the second half, now you have 2 sales instead of one. More importantly, it gives pervs like me a low-cost way to evaluate whether we like your product or not, then start buying if we do.

So far as pirates, I don't know from pirates. The only dupes I make are of my own tapes, since they tend to degrade with age. I believe it's called a backup for personal use, or somesuch.

Peace,

Iago

Second, I gotta cry foul on on anything that smacks of copyright infringement, including taping rented movies. Backing up a copy you bought is, I believe, perfectly legal. Taping rented vids is piratical. I'm no fan of the bloated, pus-infested carcass that is the recording industry, but look at how quickly they've crashed over the past few years. If we want small producers to keep giving (well, selling, actually, at often painfully high prices) us the goods that we want, they need to get paid. That means forking over the cash if you like it enough to tape it. If you don't like it eough to tape it, just return the video. You paid for the rental, and aren't out the extra sheckels for buying a bad video.

There aren't any rental places near me that I've been able to find that rent bondage flicks, which leaves me in a tough spot. Without the temptation it might be a little easier for me to preach. But just saying you pirate rather than buy because you are broke doesn't cut it. That's the same thing car thieves say, and it sounds really dumb in court.

Peace,

Iago

Iago:

Thanx for the breath of honesty.

zee-ef-ex:

As I said I am not specifying any particular board member. However realize that producers make about $8 to $12 (max) when a tape is sold to a retail store. That ain't a lot of money.

Back-up copies are fair use, to be sure.

Renting a tape and copying it is theft.

Folks do that all the time and there isn't anything to be done about it. But it is pretty disingenous to say why can't the producer be happy with his $8.

You think that's a living?

The producer doesn't get much of a cut of the money made by any of the video chains. Certainly they make nothing when you buy a corporate giant's VCR or DVD player.

I still stand by what I said. Buying pirated bondage flicks or pirating them yourself is the surest way to drive bondage producers out of business. Do it, don't do it, your choice.

Just please don't say the money you pay S*ny or P**as*n*c or Bl*ckb*st** makes up for stealing from the producers.

I am certainly not accusing you of renting/duping. I have no idea as to your personal ethics.

The practice however, is very widespread.

As those who read this board know (see some of Rick's posts), even the retail copies may be dupes. Certain NYC stores do this often, and many, many European outlets do it with impunity. Here the producer is being robbed twice.

If this board isn't the place to have a discussion about practices that tend to put bondage producers out of business, then I'm not sure it's worth discussing anywhere else, is it?

However, I won't post on this topic anymore. At least I hope I won't have to respond to any more rationalizations. It comes down to personal ethics. I can't change anyone's ethics.

When I next post, I hope it will be more about this fantasy material I love as much as the rest of you do. I just felt this was a topic that needs to be addressed.

Not being a direct producer myself, I thought I could float these ideas with less fear of customer backlash than the producers themselves might worry about.

Bill

http://www.boundanddelivered.com

Jeez, the myths and propaganda you guys propagate. Copying for your own use is legal, it's moral, it's the exact opposite of theft. Now who is it again who you say is acting in a technologically backwards manner? Not me - I'm trying to embrace new technologies, and you're arguing for restricting them. Guess that comes with the territory on a board devoted to tieing (people) down. :-)

With all best wishes and hopes that you succeed with your content-production goals, but in full recognition that YOU are flat out wrong and are arguying in favor of being technologically backwards,

zee-ef-ex

zee-ef-ex:

I don't know the letter of the law, so you may be right, though I find it hard to believe. Point me to a URL I would like to see the source you quote...

However what I will tell you is that you are screwing Rick, Dan and every producer you do it to.

Good luck!

Sorry, but you want what you want for free at the cost of screwing the people who produce the material you want. This has nothing to do with technology. Has to do with you wanting producers to stop producing. Coz that's the end result.

In the end when they all quit because you don't want them to make a living, then perhaps you will make all the bondage videos out of love.

Hey, just keep doing what your doing. Lord knows how much high quality bondage material there is out there. Who needs Dan and Rick.

Legal or not, ethically your position just sux!

Bill

As to price, I'm comfortable with a blind buy for about $25 for a 1+hr video. Any more and I waffle and wait for the "annual sale". Known producers can (with the right models and action) pry up to $60 a video(but not often).

Briefly, by copyright law, it IS illegal to copy copyrightable intangible works (written works, visual works, audio works, other) that someone else (NOT you) OWNS the copyright too. Borrowing a book from the library, renting a DVD from Blockbuster, buying a DVD direct from the producer, does NOT transfer upon you the LEGAL right to make even ONE copy of it (No, fair use provision does not allow for this -- fair use is intended for very special case limited uses -- I refer you to the above site).

But the reality is that millions of people do copy things all the time anyway. And they come up with all kinds of justifications as to why it's OK, and some of it makes sense, but that doesn't make it legal (it just makes it justified in the eyes of the justifier). And even I do it, tho not to the extent of some people I know.

Regarding the subject of this board: BDSM related video. If you'd rate the video an "A" you should definitely buy it, if a "B" you probably should, if a "C" then it's your call, if a "D" it's likely you don't want it anyway, if a "F" you should bill the producer for the time you wasted and for the wear on your VCR or DVD player.

I do have to say though, that I really hate when I buy something and it turns out to be crap or mostly crap! I've bought some DVDs based on favorable reviews, only to find I didn't concur with the reviews and felt I wasted money (I'm not talking about the reviews here BTW). That's one big problem with this stuff (DVDs, CD), if you open the shrinkwrapping, view or listen to what's on it, even tho you discover it's not something you want, you can't return it. So in that sense, they "got" you. Getting "gotten" like this enough times is another thing that drives people to copy stuff.

Please don't twist my words. I have asked for nothing for free. I just want to keep the right to buy a movie and make a copy of it, or rent a movie and make a copy of it. All perfectly legal, and all considered profitable for the past twenty years until DVDs came on the scene and Hollywood went on a money grab.

If you are complaining about people sharing multiple copies with strangers on the Internet who aren't paying, I agree with your points. But that's not what I'm talking about. I said nothing about giving away free copies. I want to make a copy for myself.

Here are some URLs so that you can see that what I am describing is perfectly legal in the US and has been for twenty years. I would have thought that content producers would know the laws which pertain to their art, but, I guess not.

Description of the Betamax case - http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/B/htmlB/betamaxcase/betamaxcase.htm

The case itself - http://www.eff.org/Legal/Cases/sony_v_universal_decision.html

zee-ef-ex

Enough already.

Even your own sources talk about taping (time shifting and fair use copy off the airwaves) as allowed, but specifically mention illegal duplication as being a copyright violation. your own sources define the practice as illegal.

Read it how you want, do what you want.

I think the practice is ethically wrong and legally wrong based on my reading of your own URL's.

You have convinced yourself of the legal and ethical right to rip off producers and it would be silly to continue to argue the point on this board.

The only item that would be of interest on this topic is that, I too, would like Rick to weigh in on this controversy.

All that said, it is somewhat reassuring to see that all GIMPers who responded on this topic, with the exception of yourself, zee-ef-ex, understand that unless producers make money, they won't produce.

On a more pleasant topic, which ZFX flick are the brandi dukes pix from? I don't recall seeing this scene. I'll come down firmly on the "like those boobies" side of this particular controversy.

Bill

PS: I apologize to all GIMPers for the brouhaha on this topic. I was just urging support of the producers you like and didn't even consider anyone would argue to put them out of business...

"These rulings pertained to the court's interpretation of the fair use doctrine as it pertained to consumers. Addressing the matter of retailing of videocassettes, the court let stand the First Sale Doctrine of the 1976 Copyright Act, which stated that the first purchaser of a copyrighted work (e.g. a motion picture on videocassette) could use it in any way the purchaser saw fit as long as copyright was not violated by illegal duplication, etc."

Every movie you rent from Blockbuster contains an FBI notice that states that illegal duplication is against the law and subject to a fine of $250,000. And based on this, we've probably all broken the law, many of us multiple times. I know I'm guilty. If the FBI were to bust into my place and raid my video shelves, they would find some stuff I've rented (or bought) that I dubbed into personal copies for my own use. I worked in video stores for 12 years, so I had easy access to thousands of tapes.

Back when I was managing a video store some years ago, a customer returned a video that was from a different store to my store, and it was obvious from the photocopied box and the shoddy look of the label that it was bootleg copy that the other store was renting out. To make a long story short, I contacted the MPAA and worked undercover renting tapes from that store, gathering evidence, and it turned out they were renting literally thousands of bootlegs to their customers. They got busted and had to pay a huge fine.

To me, this is an egregious example of ripping off studios and producers, much more so than your average John and Mary Beercan who will make copies for themselves for their own use, and not attempt to profit from it. It's the street venders who are selling bootlegs of new release theatrical movies, and the adult stores who routinely make dubs of adult videos and sell them as though they were new who are the real threats to people who produce movies.

There were a couple of times when I even contacted Rick directly and told him on the phone about a certain video store in my area that was renting out bootleg ZFX tapes. I also gave him the address of a mail order company that was selling a movie I bought called "Insane" that turned out to be Rick's own "Night Prowler 2" with the titles conveniently removed. I'm pretty sure he sicced his lawyers on them :)

There's one more ironic sidebar to my MPAA story. Among the thousands of tapes from that store was a huge selection of adult videos, but the MPAA didn't have me rent any. I asked why not, and they told me flat out that nobody with the FBI cares about bootleg adult material. How frustrating is that? They leave it up to the adult producers to try to go after these guys themselves, and they don't even get any help from the authorities. And trust me, my two cases with ZFX are just a tiny drop in the bucket. Basically, any time you buy bootlegs, you are hurting the original producers financially. As far as home taping, that's up to you, but as Scribbler stated, it's still not legal.

Yay, for everyone sticking up for Rick and other producers out there. Copying a complete video that you rented is most definitely pirating and not protected by fair use laws. However, and this is a murky point, making copies of your own videos (ones that you've bought but don't own the copyright to) is OK as long as you retain the original (don't return it to the store after "backing it up") and only use it for personal use (don't lend/distribute it to others). The fair use laws are basically there to protect the consumer and provide a means for them to enjoy their investment while protecting it at the same time. IE - keeping the Original safe and watching the backup until it wears out at which time you can make another backup of the original to continue enjoying it. It is NOT meant to facilitate people getting free copies and basically stealing from the producers of said work.

Anyway, that's all for my rant about it. And I'm extremely happy to see everyone sticking up for Rick and other producers.

As to 10 dollar DVDs, man that would be awesome, but I can't see how it is feasible unless you can sell in the tens to hundreds of thousands of copies, and I just don't see our niche market doing that. Back in the day I was willing to pay up to 60 dollars for ZFX videos but rarely for anything else. I bought a few B&D Pleasures, Cal Star, etc, but they all left me wanting and feeling like I wasted my money. That was back when pretty much ALL Bondage VHS tapes were around 60+ dollars a pop. At 35 for ZFX Material I feel like I'm in Bargain central compared to the old days. And at 25 dollars a pop I'm even willing to experiment with out producers who don't produce ZFX type material.

That said, I'd be willing to buy more from other producers if they produced more ZFXish stuff. Stuff featuring Bondage, Rape, Storyline (Horror, Sci-Fi, Kidnapping, Superheroes being my favorites), Nylons/Pantyhose (my personal fetish), and at least an attempt at getting the scenery right. Granted Costuming and Scene locations are probably out of reach for most producers, but I know thrift stores have some great values for costuming to fit a storyline that can also be destroyed (ripped off, yum!) during filming. So get to it, and I'd set up a special budget just for you other producers also. :) I've always got a "special" section of my bank account set aside for possible ZFX expenditures. Generally around 200 dollars just in case Rick goes back to the old days and releases 4-6 videos all at once. :)

Once again, that said, I'm not as into the straight Bondage, tight ropes, whipping, pain thing just for the sake of bondage, tight ropes, whipping and pain. I almost find vanilla porn as entertaining as that, so I generally don't spend much money for something along those lines. Hell, I spend more money on independant horror movies on the net in hopes that it includes a few scenes of women getting molested by a monster or kidnapped and raped by some depraved person or a combination of the two. Guess that shows where my little kinks are. I can't imagine how excited I'd get if there was a semi-real looking Zombie flick that had Zombies raping women. :) And tentacles would be a bonus. :D I keep hoping I win the lotto or inheret some money from some rich uncle I never knew about so I could make a video I'd like and costs be damned. :) Unforunately that hasn't happened yet. :P

IAGO - There's a few sites I've found that do the superhero thing. You've already mentioned Superheroine Central and Superheroines Demise (Superheroines Demise being a slight bit better IMO, too many fake tits on Central though the comics are nice). But Superheroines.com is my current favorite for material as it convers my little fetishes a bit better. Costuming and the whole pantyhose thing under the costume and watching it slowly being ripped off. Unfortunately they don't have a ton of material on there and no video's whatsoever. However the pictures are good quality and he "tries" to update twice a week. He isn't very good at sticking to a schedule however and sometimes you get one update in a week and sometimes you get three in a week. On the plus side it is fairly cheap at 14.95 so you aren't out much if you don't like it. The bondage isn't generall that tight. About on part with Shortfuse type bondage, but there is occasional penetration and sometimes good costuming.

You might also want to give spacebabecentral.com (sister site of superheroinecentral) as they usually have a few tentacle type comics going and occasionally at least "try" to incorporate tentacles into their movies. Not as much material as SuperheroineCentral but it fits me a tiny bit more for the hope that tentacles will show up again. :)

There's a few more sites that I might try in the near future. Boundcomics Universe looks interesting and is fairly cheap. I'm hoping for good things from it, but who knows, it's a crapshoot either way.

SB

Silent Buddha, I can definitely relate to the disappointment in B&D Pleasures, etc. There's nothing quite like the let-down associated with lame bondage. The box looks good, but, ah, the slow, flaccid proceedings within... compare that to a Dan Hawke video where the bondage itself is near unbearable.

Producers with the commitment to serious BDSM deserve support. This is not the mainstream; without support shown by purchasing their products, they will not stay in business, and we'll be the poorer for it.

Plus, reduce the ability to time shift, and I would certainly rent FEWER movies than I do now. So these technological restrictions which you are advocating will actually result in fewer dollars in content producers' pockets. That's the result you want? Tsk, how short-sighted.

Anyway, like I said, you can't win, you're just wrong and living in the past. :) The age of digitally perfect copies is here. Adapt, or lose your audience.

zee-ef-ex

Zee-ef-ex...Dood, there's nothing to say to you. You are basically saying that if people make it harder for you to steal from them that you won't steal as much from them. Hellooooo?

Time-shifting is for broadcast stuff-things that are played over the TV at specific times which you can record to watch at a later time. Tivo is probably a good example of this. When you have a recording already in the form of a rented movie THERE IS NO TIMESHIFTING. It's right in front of you, to be played or replayed at your liesure. Anyway, that's the last of it from me. Let me just point out that everything you rent tells you it's illegal to copy it. Nothing on TV says that. If you think it's right and legal for a publisher to get paid for one copy of a video that then gets rented out to and copied by 50 other people with no coin going into his pocket for any of it, well, aside from the obvious, that you are wrong, you are stealing the man's bread from his mouth while keeping a smile on yours. Not good, brother.

Peace,

Iago

Thanks,

Iago

Rod

Yes, we have pretty much killed the horse, I won't belabor the points either. You guys have good taste in porn, but you are so dense about copyright and economics and technology that it is unbelievable. Renting videotapes does not entail time shifting? What are you smoking? You mean, when I go to the video store, rent five movies, record all five of them immediately onto blank tapes, return them on time so I receive no late fees, and then watch the copied movies at my leisure over the next week or the next three months, depending on how much free time I have, and then when I finish watching them rent some more and do it all over again, re-taping over the early copies, rarely if ever keeping any of them - that's not time shifting? Is that really what you're saying? What the hell is that if that's not time shifting?

Next thing you'll be saying is that keeping the recorded copies longer than the three days or whatever my video store allows me is stealing and I should be paying extra late fees for daring to watch the movie after five days instead of after two days. And god forbid you should overhear me whistling a song I heard on the radio, if one of us didn't send a nickel to the radio station first in order to be allowed to repeat their song. JESUS, WAKE THE FUCK UP.

Sorry, someone had to say it. How can guys so smart be so stupid? :)

Oh well, the horse has been creamted. I won't revive it. Reason just doesn't seem to be able to win out over propaganda. Enjoy your servitude, boys. Now, back to our regularly scheduled program.

Oh, PS, all of you owe me $10 for reading my comments here.

zee-ef-ex

zee-ef-ex:

I won't beat the horse anymore either. Nor do I think this board deserves any more on this topic.

You are very young, tho' (no matter your age).

So let's engage your kinky brain, zee-ef-ex, tell us what flicks you do like and we'll get this board back on track.

Disclaimer: These comments may be read free of charge. Correspondent acknowledges that reading these comments may be construed to represent unsolicted advertisement of my website, http://www.boundanddelivered.com

heh!

Bill

Now, he's got quite a few sets up. Nothing like the quantity of content at the Villains site, but much better quality IMO. Granted I haven't subscribed to the Villains site in about a year or so. Like the Villains site it can sometimes take a few weeks for the entire story to be shown. When possible he tries to do it in comic book format. And then also releases just the photos. Sometimes it appears he doesn't have time and just releases the photos with no story. Either way when he hits the mark it is some really great stuff. On the flip side, sometimes the series aren't so great. If you do check it out, you'll notice how over time he's been more off than on, and his last few sets have had some nice photography.

SB

Just letting you know, I've got 4 more titles on DVD, Fair Warning, Vacuum, Drifters and In Their Nature, they should be up there by now. All are ground up Restorations, Fair Warning was deflashed(ask Ralphus what that means) and sound remixed on all of em. No new scenes except FW has some slight extensions here and there but also some tightened edits and such. Its about 4 min longer that it was originally. Also there 8 new titles up streaming, one of which is Liza Cord with the delectable Amy Van Allen. That makes about 70 or so streaming titles up there. Bitter Sweet Persuasion (final title I hope heh) is close to completion. It will likely not be out till early next year.

zeeefex: Heres the thing about that ruling. First it says taped off air ie. taped from a broadcast not copied from a tangible object. The Second thing is they said (the court)

"These rulings pertained to the court's interpretation of the fair use doctrine as it pertained to consumers. Addressing the matter of retailing of videocassettes, the court let stand the First Sale Doctrine of the 1976 Copyright Act, which stated that the first purchaser of a copyrighted work (e.g. a motion picture on videocassette) could use it in any way the purchaser saw fit as long as copyright was not violated by illegal duplication, etc. This right extended to the rental of videocassettes purchased from Hollywood studios."

Your misinterpreting this. It say the first PURCHASER, i.e. the rental store, can RENT the movie. If you BUY it you can rent it and probably make one copy of it for yourself.

All that said, yeah, people will do what they will do. It taping rentals does a bit of commercial damage but its not a huge concern. I dont encourage it, but I aint losing sleep over THAT. The folks that tape rentals probably cant afford to buy one, or are just to cheap and foolish. At least they drive sales to rental outlets. People like ze ef ex are low on my agro list, though I think what you saying is wrong minded. If you like something, buy it, support it, or it wont survive. Personally, I cant complain, I have many, many paying customers and for this I'm thankful. ze ef ex, dont feel the need to respond, lets just let this dam thread DIE hehe! You got your view points, I doubt any of us are gonna change anyone elses minds...

The authorities: will help because by law, they have to IF you have the money to press the issue in court. If you want government muscle behind anything you gotta pay for it and its not a cheap endeavor but it can and is doable. You must have an actual copyright though, i.e. it must be a registered work to be able to use the court system effectively. And you need a good lawyer.

B&D Pleasures: Ive not seen Binding Intruder, how resent is it? I have to admit Ive not watched Bill Majors stuff since Malibu Bondage, I think the title was circa 1995ish (this is a cure for insomnia bigtime), but I've heard tell they have gotten much more radical in resent times. Check out At Knifepoint and At Knifepoint 2. They look pretty good. Some of their old stuff was really good too. School Dayz was one Ive talked about previously. Another I recall was Tough Task, with a buxom red head (dont remember her name), was very well done. A lot of very heavy bondage and tit bondage. Its consensual, but the girl plays a reporter in over her head and plays it to a tee. Bill does probably some of the best rubber band tit bondage Ive seen in TT, which is what inspired the final scene in Misadventures of Lois Payne. The gal has an enormous set of cans with massive pink nips which become so engorged and swollen from the mountain of rubber bands on them they look like they are going to pop. Its pretty freaky...Anyway, MLP has a similar theme (reporter, etc.) so this movie was definitely an inspiration.

Mr.?: Brandi Dukes hasnt done any work that I'm aware of outside of working for me.

Ok, thats it for now, happy T-day=)

Rick=)

What is Bitter Sweet Persuasion about?

Who is in it?

Thanks!

You can email me at this address:

davedarke@davedarke.com

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I have been out of town on business.

Dave Darke

Superheroines' Demise is pretty good peril site too. They have the best wrestling move type fighting photos of any of the sites. I wish they did more bondage (bondage like we like it) and had more nudity.

SHC has some cool stuff, but not enough to get me to join (based on the free images). Too much poser art. I just can't get myself to pay for poser art. The other comic art is good. Video content seems good (based on the free teasers). The cycling of content off the site after 8 weeks is a big downside to me, and another reason I didn't join.

Speaking of superheroine video, I was watching Ballista 3. Kinda like Lisa's, Ballista's, rape on the table. The anal dildo penetration, if it is fake as we're told it is, is pretty darn convincing (as is the vagina dildo penetration). I really want to ask Rick how he does those effects, but I'm guessing he won't tell me. Guess I'll have to keep studying it! It's a good scene, and the breast groping part I like too.

nycdom30:check the archives and search for "bitter." Bitter Sweet Persuasion, formerly named Bitter Sweet 2000, is like a homage to CalStars (HOM) Bittersweet Revenge movie. RIck's posted about it before. Aren't you glad Ralphus keeps archives! The only thing you missed is the cool preview photos Ralphus was posting awhile ago.

Hey Rick, you spelled "Vacum" correctly, is that the new title! I see we have no reviews of Fair Warning and Drifters. Since they're on DVD, would be useful to have. All the new DVD releases, even of old movies, should have reviews. Who could we possibly get to do them? :)

The Gimp is the only one I remember who reviewed Fair Warning, and it was just a capsule review right here:

Various ZFX reviews

Interestingly, Rick just announced that the movie had been "deflashed" and the sound remixed, which were two of The Gimp's complaints in his review. I recall someone here complaining that the constant strobing throughout the tape was distracting (although I wasn't the one to say it, Rick) and maybe that's why it was fixed. I had a somewhat lukewarm reaction to the tape when I first saw it, although it's been years and I don't remember a lot about it. I do recall that it was Chandra Sweet's first appearance for ZFX, and she's pretty and blonde, and she gets gang-raped in a field by a bunch of guys wearing monster masks, and later shocked and raped by Travis Lee. Plus it was nearly 2 hours long, so there's a lot to see. It was a pretty ambitious project by Rick, heavy on atmosphere, and one I would like to watch again now that the strobing effects have been removed.

BTW, I may be wrong, but I was thinking that Chandra never had any rape scenes other than the ones in this movie. Hard to believe with as many appearances as she made for ZFX, but can anyone name even one more?

Oh, and count me as someone else who is curious as to how Rick pulls off those "penetration" rape scenes, like the one Scribbler mentioned, without showing real penetration. It's an impressive effect. Is it a computer trick? Come on, Rick, tell us!

I did another search on Brandi....Some sites turned up with her name high lighted, I opened the site & it was a trick! Every other pornstar but Brandi... :( Some savvy web masters did their homework. it just proves that....BRANDIīS HOT!

signing out...smut detective,Mr?.

Is Kim Noble still in it?

Anyone got a picture of Suzi?

How about posting those preview pictures again!

Rick: No matter how you spell it, Vaccum is one of Lisa's best. Thanks for adding it to the DVD list.

Mad Dog: Throw me a bone! How is Kelly McKay like to work with?

Scribbler: It's interesting to see how impressions line up. I haven't tried superheroines.com yet, but think I'll sign up later in the week. I like what I see in the preview. Also, I think SHC has pretty good movies sometimes. It's a big strength of theirs. A twist in the story is that DanO recently broke with Media9 and took SHC "private" again. It'll be interesting to see what happens there now that it is his only concern again.

nycdom: What's this? Kim Noble in Bittersweet Revenge? Do we have confirmation on this? I loved her in her ZFX appearences.

Peace,

Iago

Boy, this has to be ZFX's most eagerly awaited new release in years, if the popularity of these stills is any indication. I get e-mail requests all the time from people who missed them when they were first posted. So this seems like a better solution.

Come and get 'em!

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/ralphus44/ZFXBSR2000_1asm.jpg

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/ralphus44/ZFXBSRKIM-1asm.jpg

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/ralphus44/ZFXBSRSuzi-1a.jpg

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/ralphus44/ZFXBSRsuzi2asm.jpg

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/ralphus44/ZFXROB1asm.jpg

And even if you got them the first time, grab 'em again, since I had to resize them initially to fit them on the board, and these are full-sized here.

I'll keep these up as long as I can, before I run out of free storage space, or until AOL finds out what I'm doing with my free storage space, throws a hissy fit and pulls them on their own.

Leave it to you, Rick, to chime in with the most thoughtful response. I got pretty tired of people calling me a thief for what I see as completely ethical behavior.

Yes, of course I can see your points about supporting the artist. But it's also true that technological innovations are a reality which artists need to successfully master.

To me, it all comes down to providing convenience for the customer. No, I don't have the money to willy-nilly buy videos. Even if I was rich, I would still see doing so as wasteful. For every ten tapes I rent, usually only one is something I would even want to keep a copy of, and even then, it's usually just one scene or two from the tape and not the whole thing. Even your tapes, Rick. We all have different tastes, and the quality just isn't always there. I want to sample tapes and keep the ones I like, that's the bottom line. So, what's the best way to accomplish that?

Time-shifting is a convenience I need. I rent a lot of tapes at once because I know most of them will suck, and because I don't have the time to travel to the specialty video store on a daily basis. So I rent 'em, dub 'em, and watch these samples when I have free time.

Keeping only what I want from the samples I watch is also a convenience I need. The economic trick is to make purchasing more or equally cost-effective than dubbing copies. If I could go to the video store and rent ten movies for the usual $3 bucks each, and then when I returned them, say to the proprietor, "I would like to keep a copy of this one, and from this other one, I would like to have a copy of the second scene, that girl was hot. The rest of them, forget it." And if he could burn them for me and charge me a price much closer to my dubbing costs, sure I'd go for it.

Anyway, the whole reason why I am reviving this thread, just once - well, there are two reasons, every dog must have its day and I want Maddog to have his :) - is because I have a quick question for you, Rick, or anyone else who thinks they know the laws on this. Rick, it sounded like you understood the laws surrounding this, so let me ask you: If I have to type a paper for school or for work, and I go to the public library and check out a copyrighted book, then decide that I would really like to keep a copy of one of the chapters because when I'm writing the paper at home it will help me as source material, so I head over to the copy machine and make a photocopy of that chapter and keep it ... what is legally wrong with that? I thought that was called fair use. It's for my own personal use. I have returned the copyrighted work to the library, undamaged. How is this any different from renting a videotape, copying a scene off it for my own use, and returning the tape to the store? Is there a legal difference, and if there is, what is it?

That's why I think you guys are crazy for calling me a thief. Isn't it the exact same situation? I'm really asking seriously, I want to understand this stuff. You guys are driving me crazy by not seeing how normal and analogous this is. Rick, if you know that there is a difference, can you explain it? Thanks.

zee-ef-ex

zee-ef-ex

Ralphus - BIG BIG HUGE BIG HUGE Thanks for the repost of those preview pics. I missed them the first time around. Suzi Sexton is looking pretty good in this one, I'm waiting with drool breath for this one. :) And any others Rick releases.

SB

Don't know if that helps explain things or not. Probably the best thing to do is go to the video rental place and talk to the manager and say "hey, I'm renting these 10 movies all at once so that I can tape them on blank VHS tapes and then watch them anytime at my convenience, that's OK right, it's timeshifting?" I'm sure he'll say "Sure, no problem." If he doesn't, you can call him stupid. If you're not happy with his answer, you could try asking a media attorney, or better yet, go to your local police station or the FBI. Ask the FBI guy "Hey, I regularly rent a bunch of movies from rental places and tape them on blank video tapes, so I can watch them when I want, you know, timeshifting. That's OK, right? It's fair use, right? and it's a lot cheaper than buying them." I'm willing to bet he'll say "Oh absolutely, that's perfectly fine and ethical. There is that FBI warning on most DVDs and VHS movies sold that goes something like...

FBI WARNING Federal law provides severe civil and criminal penalties for the unauthorized reproduction, distribution or exhibition of copyrighted motion pictures, video tapes or video discs. Criminal copyright infringement is investigated by the FBI and may constitute a felony of up to five years in prison and/or a $250,000 fine.

...but don't worry about that, they just include that text at the start of movies cause it looks nice." And if he doesn't say that it's perfectly fine and legal, you can call him stupid.

Truth is bondage video producers make way too much money. Say an adult store buys a video from a bd video producer for $28 (that retails for $40), and then rents it to say 200 guys over the course of the year for $3 each, who all tape it for themselves and have their own copy (so why buy it), that's a whopping $600 bucks to the store, and a whopping $28 to the producer. Now if even half, 100 of those guys, instead of renting, bought the video direct from the producer, that would be $4000 to the producer. What's $4000 versus $28 to the producer as far as contributing to the production of future BD tapes, or just making a living. $4000 vs $28, hmm, virtually no difference far as I can see. If Rick took either amount of money, $4000 or $28, as budget for another video, the resulting product would be virtually the same. Lisa can get buy on a salary of $1000 or $6 for her performance in it, either amount of compensation for however many hours of work would be fine with her.

Seriously, copyright law and the purpose behind it, protecting the rights of writers, songwriters, artists, video producers to generate income from the value of their creations is just a strange concept. They don't deserve any money for that, it should all be free. Small rental fees sure, for the stores that rent the tapes, they need to stay in business, but actually buying product so the actual creators, especially creators of worthwhile stuff, can stay in business, what's the point of that?

What really needs to be invented is a machine that can make copies of tangible products, just like VCRs copy movies? There's a digital camera I want that's like $1000. If I could rent the camera, run it through the machine that would copy it for $20 worth of materials (or whatever would be analogous to blank tape), then I could return the $1000 camera, and have my exact working copy of it for $20. Would be awesome for cars. $100 Ferrari anyone. So what if that doesn't help Sony pay for it's research and development, designers, scientists, engineers, huge factories and workers. Sony can go out of business for all I care. Whatever's convenient for me! Heck, for $20 I could make a few copies of it, always good to have backups.

OK, I went too far, didn't I, but I got on a roll. Excuse my sarcasm. Bottomline is that video producers would like to make as much money as possible from their video sales, and consumers of their videos would like to pay as little as possible for acquiring them, for various reasons. Copying machines are available that make duplicating movies easy. Renting or borrowing a movie and copying it is way cheaper than buying the movie, and as the number of movies we're talking about here increases so does the difference in cost between buying (more and more expensive) and copying (less and less expensive). Regardless of copyright laws, copying is going to happen a whole lot anyway, in these times. What each consumer has to decide for themselves, and be truthful with themselves about, is am I being fair and actually ethical to the content producers in the amount of stuff I buy versus copy. Zee, you have to decide that for yourself, as I and everyone else has to decide for themsselves. Even if the law were to say you can copy anything you want (it doesn't) or the law were to say copying anything is illegal (closer but not true either), all you can do is do what you think is right. Just remember the producer's work and sweat and wish to earn money in your assessment, along with your desire, and most consumer's desires, for paying as little as possible.

Scribbler, I know there is a point or two in there, but most of that is just gibberish. So I looked at the site you referred to and then went on a surfing rampage and it's crystal clear that what I am describing is perfectly legal, and that the Supreme Court in the Betamax case said there is a presumption that ANY (not just off-the-air) private copying is fair use. So not only is what I am doing MORE financially supportive of content producers than if I didn't have this ability, as I described earlier, but it's perfectly legal, and digital copying restrictions still suck.

Don't fall behind, everybody! Move on to the superior technology of analog video! :-) Wank in peace, brothers. Piss out. Back to merciless peril.

zee-ef-ex

To state the obvious: Masturbation does NOT cause blindness, it causes hairy palms! :)

The beers sound good. Let me know if yer ever coming down DC way and I'll find us a good happy hour.

Now that I think about it I HAVE been around here since about 2 months after the board opened, though I come and go sometimes. Wow. Quite a while now.

Everyone else except the pustulant oozing sore that is Mad Dog when he's poking holes in my moral superiority (on this board I risk being laughed out of Dodge with a statement like that, I know), I hope you all had a good Thanksgiving (grin).

Peace and good eating!

Peace.

Yah, but guess what happens when you rub your eyes with hairy palms? You betcha, blindness.

Hmm...I think I'd force her to do a photo shoot with RR. Maybe as early as this december, I'm thinking, like the first or second week. There'd be a lot of breast squeezing, bondage, and simulated coitus. Whipping's not a bad idea either. Then I'd force her to go out to dinner with him.

Seriously, as far as video goes, she's done suspension, clamps, dildos, whipping, etc. So She's done some intense stuff already. I'd like to see her team up with a different director (namely me) more for style of video look, production process, and not so much for what's being done specifically. The taser stuff is faked in ZFX, so that's easy enough.

Sorry honey, but you just lost a sale to this potential customer, unless Dave shoots your entire vid from the waist up. Too bad, because she sure looks nice with duct tape on her mouth.

She looks super hot otherwise. Especially the shot with the mouth spreader gag.

Tatoo's are a real killer for ending the fantasy with me. And almost, but to a lesser degree (depending on where they are) are piercings (her nipples in this case).

I hope it dosen't sound like we are picking on Dave, 'cause we aren't. If you go back through the history of the forum, there are plenty of mention's concerning the dislike of tatoo's. Maybe the next video will have more to offer us tatoo haters.

Looks good other wise Dave. Later.

Hey, GIMPers:

Been a long time since I posted here. Haven't been lurking, have just been working hard on several fronts.

I've been thinking of a complilation DVD (probably not going to be available on VHS) This would include great scenes from past videos. Some which may have been overlooked. There are wild scenes in some older videos and I would probably concentrate on those. I would re-edit them to clean and tighten them up a bit. I would make the DVD about 2 hours long.

I would probably charge a bargain price for this particular product.

What do you all think?

Another thing I've been working on is some technical assistance with Dave's first video. I even make a brief appearance at the beginning, though it's really his video.

Like everyon else who's commented, I am not a fan of tatoos either. However the model in this upcoming video is so hot that I agreed with Dave that she was worth making an exception for. Some of you may know this is the model billed as "Seven" on insex. She is going by a new name which may appear for the first time on Dave's video.

I think you might want to look past the tatoo on this one! This gal is very hot!

~Dan

PS: recent posts on this board have been really supportive of myself and the other producers who read this board.

Let me add my voice to those who dislike tattos. I know this is becoming more trendy of late but I personally find them to be very unattractive. I just don't get the appeal.

When watching a video, if you are going to have a storyline to the vid, a tatto can really hurt. Like say our victim is a nurse or cheerleader? I don't expect a big ass tatto on someone like that.

Tattos usually signify low class, not to insult those who have tattos but that is how its looked upon. I personally like my video victims to be the innocent types. Not tramps and hookers.

That's my two cents. I would say the when looking to buy a vid, how hot the girl looks is usually my #1 consideration. So when I see tats I usually pass.

I can not wait for bittersweet pesusasion!

Thanx for the continued vidcaps of HS, Ralphus!

I generally have mixed feelings about tattoos on women. I suppose it depends a lot on the particular woman, the setting, and the mood I happen to be in at the time.

For example, if I am in the mood to watch the torture and humiliation of some trashy slut, then by all means, bring on the tats. I figure the woman has been around the block a few times and got a small taste of pain when she got her tattoo, so let's see how she handles some real discomfort. Maybe I don't like the tattoo and it pisses me off--all the better reason to make her day miserable.

On the other hand, if the setting calls for a sweet, sexy, innocent babe who somehow landed in the wrong place at the wrong time, then tattoos might seem a little out of place.

My feeling is, some women wear their tattoos well and others don't. The popularity of tattoos and other forms of body modification has skyrocketed in the past few years, and sometimes you have to go with the flow. I don't have a blanket objection to tattoos on women per se, I just think they need to be viewed in a broad context (no pun intended).

My first video features a super hot model named Seven who has a fairly large tattoo on her hip. Let me tell you, that model has such a gorgeous body, with beautiful tits and a perfect ass, that the tattoo is the last thing I would notice. The tattoo is actually a rather nice piece of artwork with personal meaning for her, and she is justifiably proud of it.

Let me put it this way. I would much rather look at a gorgeous woman who happens to have a tattoo than a plain Jane without tats. Just my 2 cents.

Dave Darke

Joe X

ap61: Bastinado scenes in ZFX vids? Nope, you might want to look specifically for foot fetish videos for scenes like that.

Dan Hawke: Nice to see you posting again. A Best of Dan Hawke compilation sounds like a killer idea, but good luck trying to cram your best scenes into a 2-hour DVD. Too much good footage, not enough time. Sounds like an editing challenge to me. And putting it out at a special price should make it a must-have for anyone who is curious about your work and wants to sample it. I say bring it on!

Piercings: Again, subtlety is key. I happen to like nipple rings, and belly rings, yum. Nose rings or studs, almost never. Eyebrows? If it's really small and subtle. Clit or labia rings, nah...

FWIW, I don't see tats or percings as saying "This is not an innocent woman, a cheerleader" or whatever. But I do see GARISH, HUGE, UNNECESSARILY OVERBEARING tats and piercings as saying that. If any ladies read this board, please, with piercings and tats, a little goes a long way, and sometimes too far. Better to err on the side of too small and too few than too much.

zee-ef-ex