letvor's Cave

[ZootieZootZoot]

Again, we're not celebrating serial killers, either. Individually and collectively, they are horrible people who don't deserve to live in society. But without them, we wouldn't have a lot of the material that form the basis of the drawings, stories and film clips of women in peril that we all seem to love. It's a slippery slope, to be sure.

The first time that I was ever exposed to the Toy Box Killer was years ago from some true crime post on Reddit. I doubt that they posted any photos, but they did link to a transcript of the audio tape that he allegedly played for his victims once they had been abducted.

https://thinkingaboutphilosophy.blogspo ... cript.html

The reaction from the people on Reddit was pure revulsion. Some even said that they couldn't finish it because they were crying too hard. And they are completely correct. Something like this happening in real life is just unthinkable.

But... when I read it, I did not have the same emotional reaction as the other people there. My first thought was that this was basically the same plot as 500 other "abduction porn" stories over at Gromet's Plaza. If I saw it over there, it would probably just get a "meh".

It got me thinking though, in which way did the influence go? Was David Ray Parker influenced by the BDSM porn of his time, or was he the inspiration for fiction writers of the future?

[cluseb]

Best guess; It's a two way street.

It took 3 days of research to confirm this wasn't a fake

Police only recovered 1 VHS tape from David Parker Ray's crime scene
Her name was Kelli Garrett ... She's 1 of only 3 known survivors of aprox. 60 women

And here's the porn version

To expand, click blue ---> https://ralphus.net/thegimpforum/downlo ... &mode=view trailer and gimp head are AI.
Chair and body by KINK. It's Modern Family's Haley Dunphy in my version of Ray Toy Box

I'm certain more serial killers and serial rapists were exposed to Insex and kinks gyno restraint systems than saw my first image. Art imitates life and life imitates art.
I wonder how many women/girls were subjeted to horrors first dreamt up by the writers of Criminal Minds

ctr.JPG (4.14 KiB) Viewed 73056 times

It was a convergence of of both that inspired my piece.

Fact:
David Parker Ray was a sadist who derived
pleasure from inflicting pain on his victims.

This included both physical and mental torture. After abducting a victim, he liked to play them a tape recording of his own voice. The recording detailed how they were going to be raped and abused in a soundproof "playroom". It also warned them that they would be whipped or shocked with an electroshock machine if they "got out of line". Ray got a perverse kick out of witnessing his victims' fear as they listened to the tape. It is believed that his sadistic tendencies stretched back to his early adolescence, as his estranged sister said he was drawing sadistic torture images by the age of 14.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
Fiction:
Haley Gwendolyn Dunphy is a fictional character played by Sarah Hyland who is three years older than her character on the American sit-com Modern Famely.

This is the only real photo of Sarah Hyland I'll post here.
Haley was born on December 10, 1993 and is a flirt, who focuses more on social status than studies. She is a little naive.

[letvor]

It got me thinking though, in which way did the influence go? Was David Ray Parker influenced by the BDSM porn of his time, or was he the inspiration for fiction writers of the future?

This is actually a VERY good question. I certainly won't be able to provide an answer to it, but I hope this will be the start of an interesting discussion.

Most of the crimes we are discussing here happened quite a while ago. I would love if someone could give us insight into the standards of BDSM and other violent pornography during that time.

The mentioned David Ray

committed his first homicide in 1957 when he kidnapped a woman, tied her to a tree, and tortured and murdered her

Source: Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Parker_Ray

I think Mr. PD will be most helpful in this story.

Graphic Sexual Horror

I was influenced by criminal freaks Savlo and The Boston Strangler, Hillside Strangler (...) and the ones that are the most fascinating to me are the ones that use bondage. (...) I saw The last house on the left, I saw Texas chainsaw massacre (...) it was obviously a whole culture exploiting violence.

Source: https://youtu.be/NnxdHn6JVwY

PD here admits that he finds inspiration in the works of our favorite criminals. He also mentions two movies that are also inspired by people from a similar milieu (Leatherface was created based on Ed Gein).

In his last interview, Ted Bundy extensively talks about violent pornography (this is just one of the quotes):

We're talking about an influence which, that is the influence of violent types of media and violent pornography which had was an indispensable link in the chain of behavior, the chain of events, that led to the behaviors to the (to the) assaults to the murders.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCUQLPOjvxs

Let's not forget that, although Ted Bundy was one of the greatest and never surpassed criminals, he was also a great manipulator, so there is a possibility that he is only saying what he thinks will save him from the electric chair.

I believe that, just like classical philosophers or writers laid the foundations in their fields, criminals did the same. Those whose deeds have now become myths influenced pornography, and the more modern lawbreakers, who are attributed to being inspired by Insex, are actually just students of those from whom PD learned his trade.

And now something about comments on Reddit:

The reaction from the people on Reddit was pure revulsion. Some even said that they couldn't finish it because they were crying too hard.

I have listened to that recording dozens of times, used it as a lullaby (and I must admit that I slept like a baby).

The Full David Parker Ray Audio Tape (REAL) Toy Box Killers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuyw-B68WqE

Imagine a world where such behavior goes unpunished, then ask those on Reddit if they will still cry or if they will take a piece of rope and go in search of the girl of their dreams.

"Now you're dead, but don't worry, you'll remain the most beautiful for at least two or three more days, after which I'll get rid of you and look for a new girlfriend."

[Ralphus]

It got me thinking though, in which way did the influence go? Was David Ray Parker influenced by the BDSM porn of his time, or was he the inspiration for fiction writers of the future?

This is actually a VERY good question. I certainly won't be able to provide an answer to it, but I hope this will be the start of an interesting discussion.

This discussion of porn causing sex crimes reminds me of this column written back in 1986 by legendary Chicago newspaper columnist Mike Royko. I still remember it years later. And others must have thought it was worth saving and reprinting, since it was easily available on the net when I just now checked.

Nobody ever got raped by a book

When I was a young crime reporter, I hung around police stations and watched the dregs drift by.

They included every sort of sexual adventurer. Rapists, peepers, flashers, child molesters, zoo invaders and guys who wore pink negligees.

Some were harmless; others were deadly. But one thing that I never saw was a dirty book sticking out of any of their pockets.

Nor did any of them confess to having dashed from a porno movie house to satisfy their lusts.

That would have been unlikely, because there was little pornography available. There were no smutty bookstores or porno movie houses. If you wanted to read something lewd, you were limited to the old eight-pagers--silly little cartoon pamphlets that showed Mickey Mouse doing it to Minnie.

For a dirty movie, you had to know somebody who could get you into an American Legion post where they were showing a stag film starring some skinny guy wearing black socks and a pimply woman who moved like she had just worked a double-shift on an assembly line.

Yet sex crimes were a routine entry on the police blotter. Anything that sex offenders do today, they were doing then.

But now we're being told by some Washington panel that pornography is a major cause of sexual violence. Convenience store chains have been pressured into not selling magazines that have centerfolds. And in many states and local communities, there is a new push for more restrictive laws.

So my question is, if pornography turns people into sex fiends, why did we have so much sexual violence before the stuff was available?

One group of experts say that because of pornography, there is more sexual violence than there used to be.

But another group will say that's bunk, that the increase in the crime statistics is simply the result of victims reporting crimes that they used to keep quiet out of embarrassment or because cops and prosecutors brushed them off.

Child abuse, for example. Incest. People used to be ashamed to go to the law. Now most aren't.

So nobody has made a conclusive case that Hefner and Guccione are guilty of anything more provocative than being a couple of pompous, profiteering jerks. Or that seeing an X-rated movie inspires a lout to dash into the streets and drag a woman into a gangway.

But for the sake of argument, let's concede that pornography does inspire a certain amount of violence.

If that's the case, we should be consistent in outlawing things that cause violence.

Consider that in recent years, there have been more than 220 bombings of abortion clinics. Bombs are pretty violent devices.

And what motivates the bombers? Those who have been arrested have expressed deep religious convictions. They say their beliefs justified setting off bombs.

Then there have been the extremist groups that shoot rural sheriffs, talk show hosts and lawyers they suspect of being liberal. They, too, spout religious devotion.

So maybe we should begin considering the outlawing of religion because it is the root cause of so much violence.

But you, as a religious person, answer that religion isn't the cause, that people who set off bombs or shoot talk show hosts have a few screws loose and will always find a reason to be violent.

I agree. Just as I agree with those who say that the guy who crawls through a window and rapes and murders a woman or a child didn't get turned on by some $6 paperback he bought on Clark Street or in Times Square.

Maybe he did it because his brain cells aren't arranged right, or he was dropped on his head as a kid, or he is simply evil. And there have been people like that long before the first book was printed.

Personally, I don't like pornography. But not because I fear it will turn me or someone else into a raging fiend. I dislike it because it is tasteless, embarrassing and boring.

But that's no reason to ban it. If being tasteless or embarrassing or boring was a crime, we'd have to get rid of 90 percent of the TV shows and hit records, close down most of the franchise food joints, muzzle the politicians and prohibit any preacher from talking more than 90 seconds.

Ah, those are some censorship movements I might like to join.

Yeah, it's an older column, but it was written around the same time when people like Bundy, David Parker Ray and others were in their heyday. And I think it's still relevant as hell. And one could argue that even though porn, especially violent porn, is much more easier to access now with the advent of the Internet, reported rape in the US has gone DOWN by around 85% since 1980. Kind of blows the whole Porn Causes Rape argument out of the water, doesn't it?

And now something about comments on Reddit:

The reaction from the people on Reddit was pure revulsion. Some even said that they couldn't finish it because they were crying too hard.

I have listened to that recording dozens of times, used it as a lullaby (and I must admit that I slept like a baby).

The Full David Parker Ray Audio Tape (REAL) Toy Box Killers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuyw-B68WqE

Nice going finding the original recording. For a long time we only had the text, or in one case, a guy recreating the original recording by reading the transcript and trying to sound like Ray. For as evil as he was, you have to admit that Ray was brilliant in his psychological abuse in that he not only tortured his victims sexually but also got into their heads emotionally, so that all they could think about what was going to happen to them while they were held captive. Talk about amping up the fear.

Imagine a world where such behavior goes unpunished, then ask those on Reddit if they will still cry or if they will take a piece of rope and go in search of the girl of their dreams.

Rope is good, but duct tape works just as well.

[letvor]

Outstanding text that opens up several questions.

So my question is, if pornography turns people into sex fiends, why did we have so much sexual violence before the stuff was available?

Source: Nobody ever got raped by a book

A great question that actually supports everything we are discussing here. Criminals have influenced certain pornographic studios, and these studios have influenced some younger generations of offenders who are, in fact, learning the trade from their older counterparts.

Although pornography was not as widespread in the past as it is today, it doesn't mean it didn't exist. People have always been prone to fantasizing about deviations, about what is so enticing and forbidden.

Genesis 19:31-36

One day the older daughter said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man around here to give us children—as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Let’s get our father to drink wine and then sleep with him and preserve our family line through our father.”

33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and slept with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, “Last night I slept with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.” 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in and slept with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

36 So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father.

I am an atheist, but let's talk about the impact of religion on sexual offenders. I don't know about you, but I see a direct connection between Genesis 19:31-36 and what Josef Fritzl did to his daughter.

For those who may not know: Josef Fritzl kept his daughter locked in a basement for 24 years and fathered seven children with her.

Josef Fritzl

Source: https://news.sky.com/story/who-is-josef ... s-12878269

Pornographic content has always been woven into the fabric of human history—rape, murder, adultery. Greek and Norse mythology are full of examples.

Zeus, disguised as a bull, deceitfully took Europa from Phoenicia to Crete, where she bore him three children.

Sources do not specify whether later relations were consensual or not, but the act of taking Europa was undoubtedly an abduction. And is there anyone more significant for those of us living on the European continent than the Phoenician princess Europa?

But if you ask Titian, Europa was indeed raped.

Titian - Rape of Europa

The circle of inspiration.

The circle of inspiration.

For those who don't know who William Devonshire is:

On February 25, 2022, the body of 48-year-old Kelliann Ripley (...) An autopsy determined that her cause of death was blunt force trauma and manual strangulation. Not long after, on March 10, the body of 59-year-old Vicky Levitch was found (...) Like Ripley, she had been extensively beaten and manually strangled (...)

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Devonshire

I think from all of this we can conclude that erotic/pornography is a ubiquitous form of expression, and it's not necessary to be familiar with it in the form of modern studios that we have today. Erotic/pornographic content can be found in many unexpected places, and these contents are often far more brutal than what Mr. PD did.

Conclusion:

The million-dollar question is how these stimulants will affect individuals, what will prompt them to do something to the sweet teenager girl next door, and how much material their actions will provide for later discussion.

I got a bit carried away, sorry about that.

[petelobo]

There is a reason why, when you watch an American movie or many of the television programs, it is a joke how many people are killed, blown up per minute of programming. Those are the movies people go to see and watch on their tubes. How many of those viewers go out and shoot or bomb or otherwise kill their fellow citizens? Damned few.

Just as it is said, guns don't kill people; people kill people. I think it's fair to say that porn doesn't cause sexual violence. Fucked up brains that have never developed the ability to distinguish between a fantasy and reality cause sexual violence, or child abuse or spousal abuse, or all manner of such crimes. People with damaged prefrontal cortex who have little or no impulse control are the murderers and rapists to an extremely high degree. Narcissists--people who never actually learned that they were not the center of the universe--people who see themselves as victims, who blame their lives on parents, partners, society itself, don't even have the ability to be aware of themselves as separate from the rest of the universe around them. If they tell a lie, it's the truth because they said it. If they act violently, it's a valid choice because they did it. Other people are not real, so there are no consequences to actions.

A Russian psychiatrist, Stanislov Grof, has done some remarkable work on the effect of very early experiences (before a person has moved out of the narcissistic phase we all pass through) on a variety of sexual preferences including sado-masochism. If an infant experiences a mother who refuses to give him her breast--or takes it away for the next child in line, one common response is for that person to fantasize about hurting women's breasts. Those people may, if they have talent, produce porn, or they may simply consume it, but there's no evidence that they turn their fantasies into action.

In earlier versions of this list there were multiple discussions of when members became first aware of their fantasies. In most cases it was well before they ever saw a french postcard or a Playboy centerfold or a porn site. They resonated to those things when they finally experienced them. If they maintained that interest, they likely specialized in certain types of activities, they likely became inured to harder and harder expressions of it in their fantasies. But if they had a functional brain, they never went beyond acting it out occasionally if they found a sympathetic partner.

[wulf]

There is a reason why, when you watch an American movie or many of the television programs, it is a joke how many people are killed, blown up per minute of programming. Those are the movies people go to see and watch on their tubes. How many of those viewers go out and shoot or bomb or otherwise kill their fellow citizens? Damned few.

Just as it is said, guns don't kill people; people kill people. I think it's fair to say that porn doesn't cause sexual violence. Fucked up brains that have never developed the ability to distinguish between a fantasy and reality cause sexual violence, or child abuse or spousal abuse, or all manner of such crimes. People with damaged prefrontal cortex who have little or no impulse control are the murderers and rapists to an extremely high degree. Narcissists--people who never actually learned that they were not the center of the universe--people who see themselves as victims, who blame their lives on parents, partners, society itself, don't even have the ability to be aware of themselves as separate from the rest of the universe around them. If they tell a lie, it's the truth because they said it. If they act violently, it's a valid choice because they did it. Other people are not real, so there are no consequences to actions.

A Russian psychiatrist, Stanislov Grof, has done some remarkable work on the effect of very early experiences (before a person has moved out of the narcissistic phase we all pass through) on a variety of sexual preferences including sado-masochism. If an infant experiences a mother who refuses to give him her breast--or takes it away for the next child in line, one common response is for that person to fantasize about hurting women's breasts. Those people may, if they have talent, produce porn, or they may simply consume it, but there's no evidence that they turn their fantasies into action.

In earlier versions of this list there were multiple discussions of when members became first aware of their fantasies. In most cases it was well before they ever saw a french postcard or a Playboy centerfold or a porn site. They resonated to those things when they finally experienced them. If they maintained that interest, they likely specialized in certain types of activities, they likely became inured to harder and harder expressions of it in their fantasies. But if they had a functional brain, they never went beyond acting it out occasionally if they found a sympathetic partner.

Very well said, Sir.

[localroger]

This is a really good discussion.

I would add that there is an entire industry of hundreds, if not thousands, of writers who do nothing all day but sit around writing fantasies of murder. And there are millions of adoring fans who scoop up their works with abandon. If you look at the books Red Dragon and Silence of the Lambs, among the most beloved of modern literature and source material for some of our most beloved movies, the depictions of the bad guys Tooth Fairy and Buffalo Bill doing their murderous work are incredibly graphic and sexual. But nobody thinks either Thomas Harris or any of his fans are at risk of becoming serial killers. It's an outlet for emotions that modern humans seldom get to express, because we no longer have to worry about the tiger coming into our cave at night.

I suspect the murder mystery genre is accepted because it is primarily about murder and secondarily about sex. When that fraction is inverted people squeal and run for the rafters. But the difference is really not that great, except that production values for the accepted genre can be higher because there isn't such a stigma attached to its production. So yeah, movies made from Thomas Harris' books tend to look a bit better than Insex videos. Go figure.

People like David Parker Ray seem to be very rare even among the population of serial killers, most of whom just kill on impulse. Ed Gein is another such outlier. It's actually not a very adaptive trait to kill for sexual pleasure since it's kind of hard for a dead partner to bear a child for you.

I think a fundamental problem is that humans did evolve to be raised in hunter-gatherer tribes of 40 to 60 people, with loosely defined parental roles and village participation. In such an environment abusive parents can't get away with much since everything is visible to everybody. The modern model of the nuclear family, each isolated in its own private cave, makes all sorts of mischief possible that wasn't in our deep past. In his mammoth book A Criminal History of Mankind Colin Wilson details the lives of most of the interesting serial killers who were at work before the book was published, and familial abuse is a very common thread. Sometimes we aren't even aware of it because we don't realize the only thing we have ever known isn't "normal." And even if we do figure that out, the imprints are set.

[letvor]

I'm glad you enjoyed the discussion and decided to participate in it. I remember that we used to extensively discuss Thomas Harris and his books a long time ago.

The existence of the entire industry (not to say machinery) dealing with crimes is present solely because profit can be made in that field. And why is that? People are beings who enjoy controlled, harmless fear and the jolting consequences it brings. On the other hand, these same people want to remain hidden from reality.

But nobody thinks either Thomas Harris or any of his fans are at risk of becoming serial killers.

Thomas Harris, mentioned earlier, as well as many others, fervently exploit humanity's hunger for fear. Writers, directors, and scriptwriters take real events as a foundation, then alter the details to render the essence poetic, and finally present the finished product to the general public. It is clear that many serial criminals have had a high level of intelligence, but can any of them be compared to the idealized Hannibal? Lecter is so far from reality, and Hopkins, on the other hand, is so masterful that the average movie consumer will be shocked but won't budge from the standpoint that it's all just fiction.

I suspect the murder mystery genre is accepted because it is primarily about murder and secondarily about sex. When that fraction is inverted people squeal and run for the rafters.

And here I completely agree with you, adding:
Although almost all serial criminals have been sexual predators, on the big screen, this detail is often either omitted or casually mentioned. People perceive sex as something sublime that leads to later happiness or procreation, and few view it as a deviant septic pit of paraphilias, which is essentially what it is.

The modern model of the nuclear family, each isolated in its own private cave, makes all sorts of mischief possible that wasn't in our deep past.

I think that this (although neither fits the definition of a nuclear family) is demonstrated by the fictional Buffalo Bill and the real David Ray. A quality crime requires a lot of maneuvering space.

[letvor]

This video popped up as a recommendation on YouTube, and I decided to share it with you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPlHziv ... L&index=11

News article: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/te ... rcna100636

The tearful beauty is Mackenzie Shirilla, 19 years old. She intentionally crashed the vehicle, in which she was traveling with her boyfriend Dominic Russo, 20 years old, and his friend Davion Flanagan, 19 years old, into a building at high speed. Both young men lost their lives in the accident. It is believed that her intention was to commit suicide.

Here you can watch her address to the court and appreciate all the beauties of her tears.

https://www.castlly.com/watch/mackenzie ... 4qsqV.html

Beauty in Chains

It would have been better if she had used her perfect body for better purposes instead of landing it in jail, and before that, giving it to this little clown. I think we would all be happy to see her in tears, but not in the courtroom.